Curse

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Is there any point using Paragons anymore in PvE? It's been 3 back-to-back nerfs and no buffs of any significant whatsoever. Incoming is now 1...3 seconds, and flashes it's about to finish the moment it starts - it's not even funny anymore.

Edited by Dralspire: Please review our complaint procedure as specified in the forum rules.

chicks boy · Feb 11, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Im glad i already deleted my paragon

The paragon only rocked when i deleted it lol

Franco Power · Feb 11, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Ofcourse not, paragons are useless, they can't provide party buff shouts, defense, heal, spike , pressure , and they have really low al, go ahead and delete your paragon, useless class.

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicks boy

Im glad i already deleted my paragon

The paragon only rocked when i deleted it lol

Well, yes. I deleted mine ages ago - when Incoming was first nerfed in fact, as the writing was on the wall even back then. But I was faced with deciding whether or not to admit a Paragon into my group today in PvE, or taking a hench/hero instead of any profession. I found it too easy to reject him and use Dunkoro instead.

As any party leader, why would they accept a Paragon over a hench like Alesia?

chicks boy · Feb 11, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

Ofcourse not, paragons are useless, they can't provide party buff shouts, defense, heal, spike , pressure , and they have really low al, go ahead and delete your paragon, useless class.

Half what you said is right, and half what you said is retarded. Buffs, defense, mid-healing? Yes. Spike and pressure, and a low al? Nope. Useless class yes you are right. AMEN TO THAT

Franco Power · Feb 11, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicks boy

Half what you said is right, and half what you said is retarded. Buffs, defense, mid-healing? Yes. Spike and pressure, and a low al? Nope. Useless class yes you are right. AMEN TO THAT

I'll sell you a sarcasm detector for 1k.

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

I'll sell you a sarcasm detector for 1k.

I asked originally why would one still use or play a Paragon and instead of contributing reasons for or against, you spam the usual hit-n-run one-liners I've seen up and down these forums.

People like you are the reason why any threads discussing the effectiveness (or lack thereof) or Paragons get shutdown prematurely by the mods.

Rakeman · Feb 11, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Paragons HAVE been over-nerfed. However, they are not useless. Right now they are mediocre. A Command Paragon can still provide good support and a Motivation Paragon can aid the monks with healing and energy and aid the tanks with some spear pressure. Paragons need a buff for sure but they are not dead yet. Saying "As any party leader, why would they accept a Paragon over a hench like Alesia?" is like saying "Why would you accept an Assassin over a Warrior?" "Why would you accept a Ritualist over a Monk?" "Why would you accept a Dervish over a Warrior?" "Why would you accept a Mesmer over a Necromancer?" "Why would you accept a non-fire Elementalist over a Searing Flame Spammer?" etc. However, all these people are accepted because every profession has its uses. Yes, Paragon's uses have been hindered, but they are still there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicks boy

Half what you said is right, and half what you said is retarded. Buffs, defense, mid-healing? Yes. Spike and pressure, and a low al? Nope. Useless class yes you are right. AMEN TO THAT

WTS sarcasm detector 100k+50 ecto. You could use one.

Edit: AW, somebody beat me to it

lg5000 · Feb 11, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

As any party leader, why would they accept a Paragon over a hench like Alesia?

Because Alesia's a monk who tanks?

No, if I'm the party leader I'll take two monks AND a paragon if one is around for extra damage not for keeping the team alive, that's what the monks are for.

Skuld · Feb 11, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

How about you use your paragon in a different role?

Cruel Spear
Spear of Lightning
Harrier's toss
Go for the eyes
Aggressive refrain
Anthem of flame
(optional)
(res)

12+1+1 spear, 10+2 leadership, 8+1 command

tough build

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Because Alesia's a monk who tanks?

No, if I'm the party leader I'll take two monks AND a paragon if one is around for extra damage not for keeping the team alive, that's what the monks are for.

Actually, Alesia's leeroy tendencies makes PvE fun sometimes. Having a paragon in mid-field with 80AL is a waste, and frankly inefficient. Putting the Paragon up front means his chants wont reach the back-line most of the time, so he's always mid-field to suit his ranged spear attacks.

I'll take two monks just like you, but I'd still reject any Paragons in favour of any other profession, all other things being equal. For extra damage, I'd bring a nuker or a dom mes.

morsdrew · Feb 11, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Oh great... I finally get Nightfall, make a shiny new Paragon,only to discover that the profession is now pretty mediocre...

Ah well, she looks good, and she is still more fun to play than assassin was for me.

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Cruel Spear
Spear of Lightning
Harrier's toss
Go for the eyes
Aggressive refrain
Anthem of flame

You know, I tried a 3-skill spear build + remainder as command like that (but used Stunning strike instead because I was in a caster-heavy area). It really didn't feel as effective as an axe warrior in terms of damage output.

Deleet · Feb 11, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

1. Nothing does.
2. It's a PvP build.
3. If paragons are useless, how come people* still use them?

* (PvP'ers in good guilds)

lyra_song · Feb 11, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

You know, I tried a 3-skill spear build + remainder as command like that (but used Stunning strike instead because I was in a caster-heavy area). It really didn't feel as effective as an axe warrior in terms of damage output.

If you could show how much additional damage your TEAMMATES were making thanks to the shout buffs through this build, im sure the damage output is comparable.

The physical fighters all benefit from increased damage through shout buffs. I would treat command paragon as more like an orders necro.

People you must remember, this is a UTILITARIAN class with complimentary skills NOT SUPPLEMENTARY

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

3. If paragons are useless, how come people* still use them?

For the same reason people still run sins. They do it because given a choice of professions to make, some people invariably choose them. But that's not a testament to whether or not the class will stand the test of time, or turn out to be misconceived in the final analysis. Not that it's gonna get them into pugs any easier, or that the nerfed skills makes playing PvE any more fun, because it isn't.

Monks and rits out-heal and out-prot. Eles and warriors out-tank and out damage Paragons. Rangers have better range and multi-target elites which Paragons lack. You can't seriously say Paragons buff that well, unless you have one micro-managing a web of mending refrains which face it, is pretty unlikely and plain boring to play. GFTE might constitute a plus, but it's not in the same class as other useful pve skills that other classes have.

There really isn't much of a reason that I can think of to use a Paragon in PvE unless you have a spare char slot you dont mind bulking up with mediocore performing member. Given that's the case, why even bother with the Paragon as a primary?

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The physical fighters all benefit from increased damage through shout buffs. I would treat command paragon as more like an orders necro.

That's a pretty niche use if that's all you can come up with. Physical fighters make up at best half the team in pve usually, if not less, so GFTE is less effective than you think. Casters dont get any benefit.

Quote:

People you must remember, this is a UTILITARIAN class with complimentary skills NOT SUPPLEMENTARY

That, to me, speaks volumes. The paragon appears to be largely useless as a primary, but may have uses as a secondary proff. He's clearly not core (according to the standard definitions), so the question is whether or not he's good enough as a support char to last. With 4 repeated nerfs, I personally doubt this.

Xenex Xclame · Feb 11, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Maybe you should stop using paragons as monk and start using them differently.
Let's take the warrior for example, it has Watch Yourself, which is a great skill, it adds ~20 armor to all party members, but does a warrior put only watch yourself , shields up? No, cause that means hes limiting his effectiveness.

Try putting 3 attack skills on your bar, 3 support skills a healing and a res on your bar, you'd be amazed at how much more a paragon can do then just heal.

Brother Andicus · Feb 11, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Lets see.

A paragon can provide party wide attack buffs, party wide armour buffs, party wide heals, party wide energy gain, has individual player buffs and impressive DPS.

Yep, totally useless....

For those bitching about how useless paragons are, consider what it is possible for a paragon to achieve with 1 skillbar and then think how many other characters you would need to produce the same effect. You cant simply say "i'd rather take another nuker" as yes, it may do more damage, but can it buff your whole party's armour, buff your melee chars and do that dps at the same time? No, but a paragon can. Likewise, you can't say "i'd rather take a healer hench", when did healer hench start doing heavy damage and restoring energy whilst healing?

I'd say people need to stop playing paragons as healer types and start playing them in the agressive buffbot style that it was designed for. For all those that are in doubt about what a paragon can do, go watch obs mode for a few hours. They can annihilate full teams of human opposition in short order whilst hardly getting scratched themselves. If they can do it to humans, they can do it to dumb AI as well.

oinkers · Feb 11, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Try putting 3 attack skills on your bar, 3 support skills a healing and a res on your bar, you'd be amazed at how much more a paragon can do then just heal.

Been there, done that. And the numbers aren't convincing.

I'm not reposting the detailed analysis in other threads, but in the final analysis, the output damage is worse than a core class, and the party heals are lower too. There's no point in playing a jack of all trades - the shouts are too underpowered and conditional to be useful. And the entire spear line is utterly horrid and a mish-mash of small-ish condition spreading skills.

Nothing that cant be duplicated better by a monk, or a warrior or a virulence build.